AD&D thoughts, Part Two: Campaign Setting, Languages, etc.
2011-Apr-28, Thursday 00:33![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dorchadas
This is a bit of a follow-up to my previous post, so if you didn't care about that one, you won't care about this one either.
So, right now, I'm tempted to use the Forgotten Realms. I know it's a bit divisive, what with the uber-NPCs everywhere, massive detail in the setting, epic level PC-squashing threats everywhere, and so on, but I'm pretty sure I have a solution for this.
At one point in second edition, TSR published a group of four books (two setting books and two adventures) that took place during the Arcane Age, anywhere from 1 to 5 millennia in the past of the modern-day Realms. The main powers then were Cormanthyr, your standard magical elf paradise in the trees; Delzoun, a dwarf kingdom under the mountain, and Netheril, a ubiquitously-magical empire of flying cities, archwizards and copious magical items (as long as you keep said items in the flying cities, outside of which they lose their power).
As someone pointed out on RPG.net, the modern Realms are basically a post-apocalyptic setting, where it's been 2000 years since the Fall of Netheril and human civilization still hasn't recovered anything like its previous power. I prefer Dark Sun for my post-apocalyptic D&D gaming anyway, and I'm planning to set the game in the Arcane Age, for a number of reasons that I'll currently detail:
Should be fun, I hope, if I can get players for it.
More random things I'm thinking about:
Languages
"Common" is dumb. Really, really dumb. Even in LotR, where Westron was probably the inspiration for common (though it might have been how everyone could talk to each other in the Conan stories, too), there were still other human languages. With longer-lived races, it makes more sense there to be some lingual continuity (especially with elves if you're using the rules from the Complete Book ofthe Master RaceElves, where pregnant elves teach their children language before they're born through a kind of mind-meld-ish ability).
The problem being, of course, that not being able to talk to people isn't really a fun puzzle so much as annoyingly frustrating[1], as I (living in a country where my mastery of the language is passable at best) fully understand. Also, as the D&D skill system is finite (you get X points per level, or X non-weapon proficiency slots per level from which your languages must also come), this is a problem. I might come up with tutoring rules--since D&D isn't a skill-based system, there isn't as much of a power-breaking problem from teaching each other skills or paying trainers for them. Something like the fighter ability I added--8 hours a day for one month, then make an Int check, success means you learn it. Maybe let bards teach languages too as a class power. Thoughts?
Saving Throws
I'll say it--second edition saving throws are dumb. Really, really dumb (deja vu!). For those who don't know, the categories are: Save vs. Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic; Save vs. Rod, Staff, or Wand; Save vs. Petrification or Polymorph; Save vs. Breath Weapon; and Save vs. Spell. You check those in descending order, so if it's a spell that kills you, it's a Save vs. Death Magic. If it's a Wand[2] of Petrification, it's a Save vs. Wand. If it's a a breath weapon that poisons you, it's a Save vs. Poison, and so on. Anything not covered under the previous category is a Save vs. Spell.
You can probably see how this is both too generic and too specific at the same time. Rock falls on you? Save vs. Spell, though there's actually a section called "Ability checks as saving throws" where it points out that since a lot of things don't make sense in this paradigm (like using spells for rocks falling on you), you can just use ability score checks instead for some of them. You also have to remember specific bonuses that apply across saving throw types but not always--high Wisdom protects against mental effects and charming, for example.
Want I'd like to do is just use Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves from 3.0, because that's actually a really good simplification of the system. The problem is that it relies on spell DCs to resist again, and I'd rather it be a close-ended system like the original saving throws were (also helps to avoid the god-wizard problem where high-level wizards have spells that are impossible to resist). I make up my own tables--like, Wizards start at Will 15, Reflex 17 and Fortitude 19. Every three levels, Will goes down by 2. Every two levels, Fortitude and Reflex go down by one. That gives Will 3, Reflex 7 and Fortitude 9 at level 20, which isn't so bad.
So, then...each class grouping has a strong, medium, weak. Strong goes down by 2 every 3 levels, weak by 1 every two. It's thus.
Warriors: Fortitude 15, Reflex 17, Will 19.
Wizards: Will 15, Reflex 17, Fortitude 19.
Priests: Will 15, Fortitude 17, Reflex 19.
Rogues: Reflex 15, Will 17, Fortitude 19.
How does that look? Individualized progressions might be better. I'm not sure I really want to emulate the original, where warriors started with crap saving throws and then they got way better than anyone else. I could also provide bonuses or penalties for high or low ability scores like proficiencies had (though probably 1 every 2 above 13 or lower than 8). Reflex is obviously Dexterity and Fortitude is obviously Constitution, but what's Will. Wisdom? *checks* Looks like. That'd work okay. :) There's still the same "the score goes down when you get better" problem, but at least in play you always want to roll high.
Unbalanced Class Powers
This is part of the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard thing I referenced earlier. Basically, as spellcasters level, they become more and more capable of doing everything. As rogues level, they get new abilities (under my new system), and can eventually use scrolls (and bards get spells). Warriors, however, are a bit left out. Paladins and Rangers get spells, at least, and a few new abilities, but Fighters get basically nothing (other than Grand Mastery, if they choose). Well, technically that's not true--the big draw for fighters is the "found a stronghold and get an army" thing, but how often does that actually happen in play? I could borrow more rules from Dark Sun and expand that roll (they can construct defenses, command troops well, build war machines, etc.) I don't really want to import Feats (might as well play 3.0 then), though I might bring in Power Attack as a scalable option open to anyone. Suggestions?
That's it for now. More things as I think of them.
[1]:I have kind of a similar problem with Dark Sun in practice. It's supposed to be a harsh wasteland where survival is difficulty and hardscrabble. In practice, video games do this way better because "Roll your Desert Survival proficiency to find water" multiple times per session gets old really, really fast.
[2]: I originally wrote "wang" there. Now there's a terrifying thought.
So, right now, I'm tempted to use the Forgotten Realms. I know it's a bit divisive, what with the uber-NPCs everywhere, massive detail in the setting, epic level PC-squashing threats everywhere, and so on, but I'm pretty sure I have a solution for this.
At one point in second edition, TSR published a group of four books (two setting books and two adventures) that took place during the Arcane Age, anywhere from 1 to 5 millennia in the past of the modern-day Realms. The main powers then were Cormanthyr, your standard magical elf paradise in the trees; Delzoun, a dwarf kingdom under the mountain, and Netheril, a ubiquitously-magical empire of flying cities, archwizards and copious magical items (as long as you keep said items in the flying cities, outside of which they lose their power).
As someone pointed out on RPG.net, the modern Realms are basically a post-apocalyptic setting, where it's been 2000 years since the Fall of Netheril and human civilization still hasn't recovered anything like its previous power. I prefer Dark Sun for my post-apocalyptic D&D gaming anyway, and I'm planning to set the game in the Arcane Age, for a number of reasons that I'll currently detail:
- No Uber NPCs - There are still a few, obviously, but all the ones people love to complain about (Elminster, Manshoon, the seven sisters, etc.) haven't been born yet. There are a ton of level 30+ archwizards around, but they're too busy administering their citadels, bickering with each other or researching spells in order to ascend to godhood to micromanage anything the PCs do. There are super-powerful elf High Mages too, but everyone expects elves to just sit in their forests and do nothing anyway.
- No Vancian magic - You know, the "spells per day" thing. Magic worked differently back then, and rules basically have a spell point/mana system for casters. That's good, because I was leaning towards that anyway.
- No Mechanics/Fluff Split - Or at least, it's not nearly as wide. You see complaints about that a lot online--based on the written rules for D&D spellcasters, it makes no sense that most D&D worlds are low magic pseudo-Renaissance fantasy when they should be more like Eberron. Well, I agree. Hence high fantasy with floating cities.
- More Setting Freedom - With the gigantic amount of material out for the modern-day Realms, pretty much everywhere has been detailed, catalogued, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. The Arcane Age doesn't have that problem. There's stuff on Netheril, and Cormanthyr, and some sketches on the other countries from the view of a historian in Lost Empires of Faerun, but that's it. And that's fine with me.
- Sword and Sorcery Feel - High Fantasy and sword and sorcery? Well, yes--Netheril may have floating cities and archwizards, and Cormanthyr might be a glorious forest paradise, but most non Netherese humans close to them are barbarian tribes or live in subsistence farming villages. Even a lot of Netherese people--the ones who are unfortunate enough to live on the ground--don't live in the magical utopia the archwizards set up. In fact, due to the properties of the magical utopia, most of the devices used to sustain it only function within the boundaries of the flying cities, and since making real magical items still requires a Permanency spell (and thus a 16th level wizard and 1 Constitution per magic item) or elven High Magic (and thus a team of centuries-old elf wizards who are probably only doing it because it helps the magical elf paradise), I can have things be low magic elsewhere. And unlike 3.0+, 2nd edition doesn't really assume magic items in order to keep players properly powerful.
- No Deity Bloat - The modern Realms (pre-4th ed., at least) has an absolutely enormous amount of gods. 4-5 dozen just for humans, to say nothing of all the other deities. The Arcane Age has 10 human deities plus the racial ones. Much easier to manage.
Should be fun, I hope, if I can get players for it.
More random things I'm thinking about:
Languages
"Common" is dumb. Really, really dumb. Even in LotR, where Westron was probably the inspiration for common (though it might have been how everyone could talk to each other in the Conan stories, too), there were still other human languages. With longer-lived races, it makes more sense there to be some lingual continuity (especially with elves if you're using the rules from the Complete Book of
The problem being, of course, that not being able to talk to people isn't really a fun puzzle so much as annoyingly frustrating[1], as I (living in a country where my mastery of the language is passable at best) fully understand. Also, as the D&D skill system is finite (you get X points per level, or X non-weapon proficiency slots per level from which your languages must also come), this is a problem. I might come up with tutoring rules--since D&D isn't a skill-based system, there isn't as much of a power-breaking problem from teaching each other skills or paying trainers for them. Something like the fighter ability I added--8 hours a day for one month, then make an Int check, success means you learn it. Maybe let bards teach languages too as a class power. Thoughts?
Saving Throws
I'll say it--second edition saving throws are dumb. Really, really dumb (deja vu!). For those who don't know, the categories are: Save vs. Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic; Save vs. Rod, Staff, or Wand; Save vs. Petrification or Polymorph; Save vs. Breath Weapon; and Save vs. Spell. You check those in descending order, so if it's a spell that kills you, it's a Save vs. Death Magic. If it's a Wand[2] of Petrification, it's a Save vs. Wand. If it's a a breath weapon that poisons you, it's a Save vs. Poison, and so on. Anything not covered under the previous category is a Save vs. Spell.
You can probably see how this is both too generic and too specific at the same time. Rock falls on you? Save vs. Spell, though there's actually a section called "Ability checks as saving throws" where it points out that since a lot of things don't make sense in this paradigm (like using spells for rocks falling on you), you can just use ability score checks instead for some of them. You also have to remember specific bonuses that apply across saving throw types but not always--high Wisdom protects against mental effects and charming, for example.
Want I'd like to do is just use Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves from 3.0, because that's actually a really good simplification of the system. The problem is that it relies on spell DCs to resist again, and I'd rather it be a close-ended system like the original saving throws were (also helps to avoid the god-wizard problem where high-level wizards have spells that are impossible to resist). I make up my own tables--like, Wizards start at Will 15, Reflex 17 and Fortitude 19. Every three levels, Will goes down by 2. Every two levels, Fortitude and Reflex go down by one. That gives Will 3, Reflex 7 and Fortitude 9 at level 20, which isn't so bad.
So, then...each class grouping has a strong, medium, weak. Strong goes down by 2 every 3 levels, weak by 1 every two. It's thus.
Warriors: Fortitude 15, Reflex 17, Will 19.
Wizards: Will 15, Reflex 17, Fortitude 19.
Priests: Will 15, Fortitude 17, Reflex 19.
Rogues: Reflex 15, Will 17, Fortitude 19.
How does that look? Individualized progressions might be better. I'm not sure I really want to emulate the original, where warriors started with crap saving throws and then they got way better than anyone else. I could also provide bonuses or penalties for high or low ability scores like proficiencies had (though probably 1 every 2 above 13 or lower than 8). Reflex is obviously Dexterity and Fortitude is obviously Constitution, but what's Will. Wisdom? *checks* Looks like. That'd work okay. :) There's still the same "the score goes down when you get better" problem, but at least in play you always want to roll high.
Unbalanced Class Powers
This is part of the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard thing I referenced earlier. Basically, as spellcasters level, they become more and more capable of doing everything. As rogues level, they get new abilities (under my new system), and can eventually use scrolls (and bards get spells). Warriors, however, are a bit left out. Paladins and Rangers get spells, at least, and a few new abilities, but Fighters get basically nothing (other than Grand Mastery, if they choose). Well, technically that's not true--the big draw for fighters is the "found a stronghold and get an army" thing, but how often does that actually happen in play? I could borrow more rules from Dark Sun and expand that roll (they can construct defenses, command troops well, build war machines, etc.) I don't really want to import Feats (might as well play 3.0 then), though I might bring in Power Attack as a scalable option open to anyone. Suggestions?
That's it for now. More things as I think of them.
[1]:I have kind of a similar problem with Dark Sun in practice. It's supposed to be a harsh wasteland where survival is difficulty and hardscrabble. In practice, video games do this way better because "Roll your Desert Survival proficiency to find water" multiple times per session gets old really, really fast.
[2]: I originally wrote "wang" there. Now there's a terrifying thought.
